In book x of the republic, painting is the paradigm plato uses to explain the meaning, and the menace, of poetic mimesis. He reiterates that while he is still content with having banished poetry from their state, he wishes to explain his reasons more thoroughly. In book two, socrates, thrasymachus and adeimantus decide to focus on a. The numbers in brackets following quotations refer to book numbers. What sets it apart from the works of poets like homer is that plato makes every. One of platos most famous works, which can be attributed to the lessons he learned from socrates, was the republic. Artists products are only imitations of reality, twice removed from the true characteristic of the world of forms. Poets cannot be let into the city because they agitate the people, removing the careful balance between the partsboth of the citizens, as well as that. For karl popper, plato is politically dangerous, an enemy of the open society. Plato has justified philosophy and the philosopher and now he displays them in relation to their rivalsthe people who are currently thought most wise and knowledgeablethe poets.
Its going to be a challengeits a challenge for everybody. At the same time, we must not ignore the fact that the republic and several of platos other dialogues are permeated with humorous and occasionally malicious references to poets, dionysiacs, and various kinds of stage business, as when socrates says that aeschylus portrayal of agamemnon, conqueror of troy, is that of a general who apparently. The purpose of this article is to analyze his discussions of rhetoric and poetry as they are presented in four dialogues. His translations of platos dialogues appeared in 1871. At the beginning of book 10, socrates returns to his frontal assault on the status and role of poetry in the ideal state. But while this partial sanction of imaginative literature has some relevance to platos aesthetics, a critic must not ignore platos continual attacks on poetry, especially the final and complete exclusion of poets in the republic x.
Plato, republic, book 10, page 595 tufts university. Midterm monroe study guide platos republic book 710. The task of the platonic philosopher is to take up the ancient quarrel between philosophy and poetry 607b and. Readers here should be sure to coordinate platos remarks on poetry with the commentary in book 3, which constitutes the first phase of the discussion. The ideas and the criticism of poetry in plato s republic, book 10 charles l. To therejectionof imitativepoetry,whichcertainlyought not to be received. He turns back to the postponed question concerning poetry about human beings. Nettleship, in lectures on the republic of plato, ed.
It is generally accepted that the republic belongs to the dialogues of platos middle period. His example is a painted couch, and the point he emphasises is that the picture shows only how the couch appears when viewed from a particular angle. It is platos bestknown work, and has proven to be one of the worlds most influential works of philosophy. Platos attitude to poetry and the fine arts, and the origins. It is known as a socratic dialogue and is perhaps one of platos best known works. This volume brings together these texts and the relevant section of republic 10. The final book of plato s republic begins with socrates returning to the question of banishing the poets that was first addressed in book iii. In book x, plato at last pits philosophybased education in confrontation with traditional poetrybased education. In platos republic, book10, socrates argues that the poets are to be banished from the ideal state, the republican city, for all poetry is based on imitation. What is true of painters is true also of poets and dramatists. The last subject, and also the origin of retail trade, is treated with admirable lucidity in the second book of the republic.
Although written in prose, it is riddled with intricate symbolism and poetic elements. It is an example of how the republics epistemology, metaphysics, and psychology can be used to o. In the third book of the republic a nearer approach is made to a theory of art than anywhere else in plato. Mar 21, 2011 plato, poetry and creativity dominic scott chapter 8. Poets were respected, examples are homer, hesiod, simonides, aeschylus, sophocles, and euripides, and they were reguarded as major thinkers and serious contenders for wisdom. Readers here should be sure to coordinate platos remarks on poetry with the commentary in book 3, which constitutes the first phase of the discussion as the discussion unfolds in book 10, it turns out socratess most forceful charge against poetry is it is. In book 10 plato repeats his critique of poetry and justifies banning all iroitative poetry from the state. For instance, plato is an idealist, who places a premium on the mind, whereas aristotle, largely in reaction to his teacher, emphasizes the world of sense. It is for this reason that plato is considered by many to be a poetry hater. The republic book ii summary and analysis gradesaver. Why doesnt plato consider a work of art a poem, or a painting, for example to be a thing in its own right, with. Check out our revolutionary sidebyside summary and analysis. Platos republic book 10 poets, knowledge, and education. An artists painting of a bed is a copy, a specific instance of a bed, not an ideal bed, and not the abstract idea of the perfect bed.
The dialogue of the second book is more an intellectual exercise than the previous book, since glaucon takes a position contrary to his own in fact, it is thrasymachus for the sake of argument, and so that they might arrive at a more satisfying conclusion. Platos discussions of rhetoric and poetry are both extensive and influential. Plato on rhetoric and poetry stanford encyclopedia of. Plato felt governors must be philosophers so they may govern wisely and effectively.
For example, he says, beds, because they all look similar, are all known as beds. In book v plato argues that in the discussion which is conducted in this work the concern is with a model paradeigma of justice to be realized both in the single man and in the city, but that this model is not to be regarded as defective if it is. Litcharts assigns a color and icon to each theme in the republic, which you can use to track the themes throughout the work. The internet classics archive the republic by plato. And the tragic poet is an imitator, and therefore, like all other imitators, he is thrice removed from the king and. Of course, the plato that popper has in mind is the plato of the republic. In books iii and x of the republic, plato addresses the problem of poets. He begins to prove this by saying that normally, a person would give a unique form to each group of things. In simplified terms, he believed that abstract ideas and truths exist in a place beyond the material objects of the world. Having sorted out the classes in the soul, socrates now states that imitation must not be allowed in the city.
An artists painting of a bed is a copy, a specific instance of a bed, not an ideal bed, and not the abstract idea of the perfect. Socrates says justice is in the third and best group. It is platos bestknown work, and has proven to be one of the worlds most influential works of philosophy and political theory, both intellectually. Sep 25, 2000 plato extended socratess inquiries to his students, one of the most famous being aristotle. Glaucon, eager to hear socrates demonstrate that justice is worthy of pursuit as both an end and as a means to an end, offers to play devils advocate and oppose his. In book 10 of his famous republic, plato banishes all poets from his ideal state. Plato s the republic is an enduring work, discussing justice, the importance of education, and the qualities needed for rulers to succeed. Plato believes poetic knowledge to be of appearances only because, were it otherwise, the poet would dedicate himself to realities not.
The critique of poetry here is simultaneously an ultimate justification for platos writings. In my philosophy of art course, we are discussing platos philosophy of art, by means of selections from statesman and books 3 and 10 of the republic, along with snippets from ion, phaedrus, and symposium in the republic, plato makes a systematic case for censoring all arts. In plato s republic, book10, socrates argues that the poets are to be banished from the ideal state, the republican city, for all poetry is based on imitation. In the tenth book of the republic he says that, whereas the artificer in making any material object imitates the eternal idea, an artist only imitates the imitation 595 a598 d. This core concept video focuses on platos republic book 10, specifically on his discussion about whether the poets or imitative artists in general which would include film, music, tv. Sep 26, 2018 10 in the light of the sheer scope, depth, and range of complexity of the republic, of its pivotal role in platos corpus, and of its still living interpretive reception, i will focus on a single but clearly central issue in the dialogue, that of mimesis, emphasizing its treatment in book x, and referring also to a key passage in book vi. Poets and mimesis in the republic jera marusic chapter 12. Our story begins as socrates and his friend glaucon head home from a festival.
And yet understanding his remarks about each of these topicsrhetoric and poetrypresents us with significant philosophical and interpretive challenges. Learn exactly what happened in this chapter, scene, or section of the republic and what it means. The final book of the republic begins with socrates return to an earlier theme, that of imitative poetry. Plato on poets, knowledge, and education republic bk. His example is a painted couch, and the point he emphasises is that the picture shows only how the couch appears when viewed from a particular angle from the side, the front, or some other perspective. In the republic, plato makes a systematic case for censoring all arts. He deduces that they are imitators of the world, and therefore far from the truth. According to this classification there are three main types of art, 1 those of use, 2 those of making or.
Benjamin jowett 18171893 was an anglican clergyman and educator. Book x serves as a kind of epilogue, an afterward to the main text. It can be sort of hard to understand why he hated the poets so much, or thought they were so dangerous as to be exiled entirely, which seems a little extreme to us today. Earlier in the dialogue, socrates suggested that certain kinds of music and poetry should not be permitted in the curriculum of study for the future rulers of the state because some art did not seem to be morally uplifting, hence perhaps bad for children. Prima facie it seems that this critique is directed at pies, might become tolerant his own unjust. One of the greatest ironies of plato s republic is that, although he condemns the poets and exiles them from his idyllic city, the republic is perhaps one of the greatest literary works of all time, and a poem in its own.
Socrates glaucon of he many excellences which i perceive in the order of our state, there is none which upon reflection pleases me better than the rule about poetry. True art is not fanciful and imitative, but simple and ideal,the expression of the highest moral energy, whether in action or repose. Poets at the symposium elisabeth belfiore chapter 9. One of plato s most famous works, which can be attributed to the lessons he learned from socrates, was the republic. Plato is an idealist, who places a premium on the mind, whereas aristotle, largely in reaction to his teacher, emphasizes the world of. Plato is perhaps paradoxically known for the poetic and rhetoric qualities of his own writings. Platos ethics and politics in the republic stanford. In the republic, plato described the ideal city, and said that the poets would be cast out of the city, along with the rhetoricians. Since the republic is primarily a work of philosophy, there isnt much of a conventional plot to move you along. Ready to call it a night, theyre intercepted by a whole gang of their acquaintances, who eventually convince them to come hang out at polemarchuss house and have a nice, long chat. Platos pronouncements on the arts in book x have engaged a spirited.
Kicking out the poets for my postintroduction aesthetics post, i wanted to talk some about plato, and specifically whether and why the poets need to be kicked out of our ideal city. Book x is perhaps the most vexing and troubling book in the republic. It is known as a socratic dialogue and is perhaps one of plato s best known works. Learn vocabulary, terms, and more with flashcards, games, and other study tools.
Socrates bans imitative poets from the city because. Platos republic book 10 poetry as corrupter of the soul youtube. Plato, poetry and creativity dominic scott chapter 8. Yet because socrates links his discussion of personal justice to an account of justice in the city and makes claims about how good and bad cities are arranged, the republic. The ideas and the criticism of poetry in platos republic, book 10. Plato on censoring artists a summary stephen hicks, ph. Readers should understand in this discussion platos rejection of poetry is closely allied with the theory of forms or ideas. As in most other platonic dialogues the main character is socrates. The task of the platonic philosopher is to take up the ancient. The republic book x summary and analysis gradesaver. Mimesis in platos republic and its interpretation by girard. Get platos republic support my work here philosophy tutorials. He has three reasons for regarding the poets as unwholesome and dangerous. Socrates reemphasizes the importance of the limits placed on poetry in the city in speech.
Platos republic book 10 poetry as corrupter of the soul. Start your 48hour free trial to unlock this plato s republic study guide. But plato never combined his economic ideas into a system, and never seems to have recognized that trade is one of the great motive powers of the state and of the world. Glaucon asks socrates whether justice belongs 1 in the class of good things we choose to have for themselves, like joy, or 2 those we value for their consequences though they themselves are hard, like physical training, or 3 the things we value for themselves and their consequences, like knowledge. As this overview makes clear, the center of platos republic is a contribution to ethics. Worse, the images the poets portray do not imitate the good part of the soul. Res publica is a socratic dialogue, written by plato around 375 bc, concerning justice. Whatever you go looking for in the republic, popper wants you to know that it shouldnt be political theory. Why does plato believe that art poetical imitations is ruinous to the understanding. But while this partial sanction of imaginative literature has some relevance to plato s aesthetics, a critic must not ignore plato s continual attacks on poetry, especially the final and complete exclusion of poets in the republic x. Jan 21, 2012 in my philosophy of art course, we are discussing platos philosophy of art, by means of selections from statesman and books 3 and 10 of the republic, along with snippets from ion, phaedrus, and symposium. The final book of platos republic begins with socrates returning to the question of banishing the poets that was first addressed in book iii. The poet knows no trade and produce nothing of real, that is, necessary value.
Popper regards the city that socrates and his friends imaginatively construct in the republic as a totalitarian monstrosity. As in so many other cases, he sets the agenda for the subsequent tradition. In fact, platos portrait of the artist makes him seem superfluous. Originally i planned to cover plato and aristotle in one post, because aristotles poetics is often treated as a direct challenge or at least response to plato. And we may further grant to those of her defenders who are lovers of poetry and yet not poets the permission. Readers here should be sure to coordinate plato s remarks on poetry with the commentary in book 3, which constitutes the first phase of the discussion. The ideas and the criticism of poetry in platos republic. Res publica is a socratic dialogue, authored by plato around 375 bc, concerning justice. Tragedy, women and the family in platos republic penelope murray chapter 10. In fact, plato favoured and found delight in poetry. Platos attitude to poetry and the fine arts, and the. Artists specifically poets claims to have broad knowledge about mankind are false. All you have is the abstract thoughtprocesses of socrates to keep you on track.
Plato founded the academy, an educational institution dedicated to pursuing philosophic truth. Much has been written in recent years on plato as a critic of literature. Its going to be a challengeits a challenge for everybody since the republic is primarily a work of philosophy, there isnt much of a conventional plot to move you along. Thrasymachus, polymarchus, and the others having gone on to enjoy the festival, socrates, glaucon, and adeimantus are left alone to continue the debate on justice. Since the midnineteenth century, the republic has been platos most famous and widely read dialogue.
Jul 01, 2018 this core concept video focuses on plato s republic book 10, specifically on his discussion about whether the poets or imitative artists in general which would include film, music, tv, etc. The translations from poetry come from jowetts translations of both plato and platos quotations from others. Midterm monroe study guide platos republic book 46 33 terms. Its formation is along the lines plato laid out in the republic. One of the greatest ironies of platos republic is that, although he condemns the poets and exiles them from his idyllic city, the republic is perhaps one of the greatest literary works of all time, and a poem in its own right. Socrates has now completed the main argument of the republic. Glaucon asks socrates whether justice belongs 1 in the class of good things we choose to have for themselves, like joy, or 2 those we value for their consequences though they themselves are hard, like physical training. To the rejection of imitative poetry, which certainly ought not to be received. In a surprising move, he banishes poets from the city. Quizlet flashcards, activities and games help you improve your grades. Why, between ourselvesfor you will not betray me to the tragic poets and all. Perfect for acing essays, tests, and quizzes, as well as for writing lesson plans.
This is also considered to be the first book on political. And so, when we hear persons saying that the tragedians, and homer, who is at their head, know all the arts and all things human, virtue as well as vice, and divine things too, for that the good poet cannot compose well unless he knows his subject, and that he who has not this knowledge can never be a poet, we ought to consider whether here. Socrates bans imitative poets from the city because they tend to tell immoral stories and falsehoods. The critique of poetry here is simultaneously an ultimate justification for plato s writings. Mimesis in platos republic and its interpretation by. Mimesis and psychological change in republic iii gabriel richardson lear chapter 11.